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Interview with Thomas L. Jensen, May 27, 2006

2006-05-27 Interview with Thomas L. Jensen, May 27, 2006 Leg001:2006OH073 Leg 099 01:57:10 Kentucky Legislature Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries Legislators -- Kentucky -- Interviews. Economic development -- Kentucky. Republican Party (U. S. : 1854- ) -- Kentucky. Tourism -- Kentucky. Kentucky. Education Reform Act (1990) Educational change Apportionment (Election law) Industrialization Express highways Cincinnati (Ohio) McConnell, Mitch Bunning, Jim, 1931- Northrup, Anne Blandford, Donald J. Sue Bennett College Cumberland College Kentucky Education Reform Act (KERA) Practice of law caucuses camaraderie bipartisanship BOPTROT Humana, Inc. Lobbyists redistricting Republican Party Abortion Economic development industrial development Tourism education reform Drug abuse Coal mines and mining Committees interstate highways legislative independence methamphetamine legislation mine safety legislation House (1984-1986, 1990-1996), 85th district Senate (2005 - ), 21st district House Minority Floor Leader, 1992-1994 Laurel County (Ky.), Jackson County (Ky.), Estill County (Ky.), Menifee County (Ky.), Powell County (Ky.) Thomas L. Jensen; interviewee Jessica Flinchem; interviewer 2006OH073_LEG099 _Jensen 1:|2(8)|49(1)|65(9)|81(15)|101(5)|125(2)|144(7)|160(13)|178(6)|196(2)|208(1)|232(5)|247(6)|266(4)|278(8)|292(8)|303(8)|314(10)|328(10)|343(1)|353(5)|366(6)|382(11)|396(7)|408(7)|421(12)|434(5)|444(12)|457(3)|467(4)|479(9)|494(7)|511(9)|524(11)|537(10)|551(11)|563(14)|574(10)|587(4)|599(8)|611(9)|623(9)|637(1)|651(3)|665(11)|678(11)|694(7)|710(12)|719(11)|733(6)|745(8)|758(9)|772(11)|787(5)|802(6)|816(1)|828(6)|839(5)|851(8)|863(13)|877(4)|890(9)|906(10)|916(11)|929(6)|941(12)|956(3)|976(14)|992(1)|1006(12)|1020(6)|1034(11)|1049(5)|1064(2)|1077(5)|1092(4)|1107(7)|1122(7)|1135(7)|1150(4)|1169(9)|1182(7)|1195(7)|1208(4)|1221(3)|1234(4)|1247(6)|1262(2)|1274(13)|1289(4)|1303(4)|1315(7)|1329(8)|1347(3)|1359(1)|1373(10)|1387(1)|1403(10)|1419(8)|1432(5)|1449(1)|1460(1)|1474(11)|1488(12)|1502(10)|1519(7)|1533(12)|1547(7)|1562(9)|1577(1)|1591(6)|1609(4)|1628(5)|1643(1)|1659(13)|1680(9)|1695(8)|1710(12) audiotrans Legit interview FLINCHUM: The following is an unrehearsed interview with former State Representative and current State Senator Tom Jensen who represented Laurel County in the Eighty-Fifth House District from 1984 to 1986 and from 1988 to 1996-- [Pause in recording.] FLINCHUM: --represented Laurel, Jackson, Estill, Menifee and Powell counties in the Twenty-First Senate District since 2005. The interview's conducted by Jessica Flinchum for the University of Kentucky Library, Kentucky Legislative Oral History Project on Saturday, May 27, 2006 in Mr. Jensen's law office in London, Kentucky, at nine AM. [Pause in recording.] FLINCHUM: First of all, Senator Jensen, what is your full name? JENSEN: It's Thomas Lee Jensen FLINCHUM: Okay. Lee's my middle name, too. JENSEN: Okay. (laughs) FLINCHUM: Could you please tell me where and when you were born? JENSEN: I was born in December 29, 1948 in Cincinnati, Ohio. Uh, my family lived there, although my dad and mother were from, from different parts. My mother was from Kentucky; my dad was from South Dakota, but I grew up in Cincinnati. FLINCHUM: Okay, so you grew up there until you were what, a teenager? JENSEN: I graduated from high school there. Um, and was a pretty good athlete but not a good student. And so, um, I, I, I had some scholarship offers but everybody said you need to go to junior college. My high school coach was from Laurel County--act-, actually, a little community out here called Bush community. And he, um, um, brought me down to Sue Bennett. And I came down to Sue Bennett, uh, stayed a couple years, had some more scholarship offers, went to Eastern Illinois. Just didn't like it up there. Good school and it was a Division One school. Uh, didn't have a lot of resources to go to school, so when, uh, I decided to quit up there, I just was not happy. And my intention was to join the military. Well, this was, been 1969. The Vietnam War and TET Offensive had just gotten over, over there, and my dad just went berserk when he found out I quit, quit school, especially when I was going for free. And, um, he told me to get back into school and so I, I came down, back down to Kentucky and, and NAIA schools, because at that time, you still had to sit out if you quit a school, sit out from playing sports. But, um, I knew I had some offers down in this area where people would pay my way while I had to sit out. And NCAA couldn't do that. So, I came down to Kentucky and, um, ended up going to Cumberland College, where they, they paid for me while I had to sit out the, a good part of the year. FLINCHUM: Okay. Cumberland College is a good school. I've visited there. My mom used to go there. JENSEN: Yeah. Cumberland, Cumberland was a good school. At that time, it wasn't near as nice a campus as it is now. Uh, President Taylor down there's done a tremendous job of raising money and fixing up, fixing up the facility. But it was a nice school as a, when I was there, a good community. There was, um, Dr. Boswell was the president of the college and he was a, he was a real gentleman and more of a student president, you know, more involved in students lives, so. And it was quaint, small school. A little more individual attention is probably what I needed at the time, and, and graduated from there in 1972. FLINCHUM: Okay. And I know that you eventually decided to go on to law school. Uh, where else did you attend college after Cumberland? JENSEN: Well, after, uh, after sitting out a year or so trying to look for a job, and, um, just working some labor-type jobs, um, I married a girl from London and decided this was where we wanted to stay if, as long as I could make a living here. Um, started looking around at law school, took my law school aptitude test and did well enough to be accepted into some schools. Uh, I, I couldn't get into UK. I'd get into U of L or, uh, Chase College of Law, which was at Northern Kentucky University. Um, I chose Chase because I could go up and stay with my parents, uh, while, while my wife stayed down here and we had, we actually had two children by the time I went to law school. So it, uh, it was a tough time. I'd stay up there all week and come home on the weekends. And we got through it. And, uh, it was a good experience for me. FLINCHUM: Good. I imagine it was hard to go back at the beginning of each week--(laughs)--leaving home again(??)-- JENSEN: --it was very hard and, and my daughter, at that time, my, my oldest daughter now, she was about two. Uh, and when I first started, and three, and, and, you know, of course, for your first child you're real close, too, and she would cry. And, you know, it just break my heart leaving every, every Sunday was when I went back, usually Sunday evening. Uh, but I cut my hours down so I just, I was up, only up there till, through Thursday. I'd actually come home on Thursday night. I didn't have any classes after the first year, I think, and made it a little bit better. I was home about three days a week, so it was a little bit better. FLINCHUM: So you say law school is a good experience overall? JENSEN: It was a good experience for me because, uh, one, uh, it, it finally gave to me a, a sense of direction of where I wanted to go. I think all my life up to that point had been looking at sports. My brother was a professional baseball player. He played in the minor leagues and got hurt and never made it to the major leagues but I always thought, you know, an athlete. And I was a decent athlete but I wasn't near pro material. Um, I's good enough to get a full scholarship and those kind of things, but not, uh, not a professional. But that's what I wanted to do. If anyone had said-- FLINCHUM: --um-hm-- JENSEN: --"What do you want to be," I want, I would've wanted to be a professional athlete. I think going to law school, for the first time it was the first time in my experience in school that I really worked and studied because I saw it as a profession. Always before it was just sort of, uh, you had to go there to participate in sports or-- FLINCHUM: --um-hm-- JENSEN: --whatever. So, it, uh, it was a, it was a good experience for me, and, um, I don't know that I have a particularly strong aptitude, but I was willing to work hard at it and always have been, and had a very successful law practice as a result of that. FLINCHUM: Okay. Tell me a little more about your family, your parents, uh, grandparents, and, and your own family. JENSEN: My, um-- FLINCHUM: -- ----------(??)-- JENSEN: --my grandparents on my mother's side who I knew more, uh, than my grandparents on my dad's side--let me start with them first, on my, my father's side. Uh, his dad came from Denmark, uh, probably around the turn of the century, and settled in Omaha, Nebraska, for a while, and then went to South Dakota as a farmer. Uh, he met my grandmother, who was from Norway, in this country. And uh, they had, they had five sons, my dad being one of them and lived their whole lives in South Dakota on a farm. My dad, uh, and actually was going to college, um, and had become an officer, uh, by virtue of, in college, taking the class--I can't even think of what is it called now, where you take, uh, you know, when you're in the military, like the-- FLINCHUM: --ROTC-- JENSEN: --ROTC, yeah, I had, had a blank there. But he was ROTC and he came out as like a lieutenant. Well, this was World War II. And, um, he went to, he was in Europe, uh, but before he left for Europe, he was stationed up in Northern Kentucky. My mother's family, uh, my grandfather on my mother's side, they were Sublets(??). And they were originally from Bowling Green, my grandmother and grandfather both and they were nearly the same age. I mean born within six months of each other, always went to school together, grew up together, and married pretty young, and, uh, stayed married their whole lives till they both died in her eighties, and died within about six months of each other. FLINCHUM: Hm. JENSEN: So, pretty, had a lot of similarities there on, just their whole life together. But, um, they, that was my mom's, um, mother and father. And they settled up in Covington area around the World War II era. My grandfather worked for a newspaper. And, um, my mom met my dad, I think, at a dance or something, while he was in the service and getting ready to go to Europe, and they dated for a while and got married before he left. And, um, actually, she was pregnant, I guess, by the time he left because when he got back about three years later my brother was born, you know, my brother was three years old, or whatever, by the end of the war. And, uh, my dad didn't see him for the first three years of his life, I don't guess. And, uh, my brother is five years older than me. After World War II, um, they settled in Cincinnati area, and that's where I grew up. FLINCHUM: Do you have any siblings besides the brother you mentioned? JENSEN: I have a little sister who lives now in Cleveland, and, um, she's a speech and hearing therapist. Um, my brother, uh, is pretty much retired now. He was a long-haul trucker after he played minor league baseball. And, uh, mainly trucking-type things, um, since then but he's, I think now he's pretty well retired. He still lives up in Loveland area, which is just outside of Cincinnati. FLINCHUM: Okay. Um, I believe you mentioned you had a daughter. Uh, what about your(??)-- JENSEN: --I have two daughters. Um, my oldest daughter, Natalie, um, she was born, um, in April of 1973. My wife and I were married in April, 1972. And Natalie now is actually, uh, went through college, college graduate from University of Kentucky. Uh, worked a few years in Washington, D.C., worked for Senator Mc Connell and worked for Congressman Hal Rogers, for Congressman Rogers probably about two years. Uh, returned to Kentucky and since that time she's worked for the state board of elections. Uh, she lives in Lexington now. She's not married. My youngest daughter, Laura, who's two years younger than Natalie, um, and was just born at the time I went to law school, um, she is married. She graduated from Eastern Kentucky University in law enforcement area, I think, is what her final major was. Um, she married to Henry Hayes, who's from Jackson, his family is from Jackson County, Henry grew up in Laurel. But, uh, his, um, his dad is from Jackson County and most of his cousins live over there. Um, Henry was working for the Kentucky State Police crime lab, um, out of college, and, um, at the time Laura married him. They have two children, so, I have two grandchildren. And, um, my granddaughter is named Elle, E-L-L-E, and, uh, Elle Jensen Hayes is her name, and my grandson's named Spencer Thomas Hayes. Uh, my son-in-law decided to, uh, I guess a couple of years ago, decided to go to dental school. And, um, and my, my daughter was all for that and we were all for that, too. So he's gone, he is now at the University of Kentucky Dental School. And about a year ago, or year and a half ago, my daughter wanted to, she, I think, she was a little tired of living by herself and maybe a little scared in the home she had. So she sold her house and they've moved in with us. So I've got my grandkids living there and that's been great. That's been outstanding. My daughter's a little tough to live with now--(both laugh)--but my granddaughter, my granddaughter and grandson are just great and joy to be around. And my daughter is too. I'm glad to have her there and glad to know that she's safe. FLINCHUM: How old are your grandchildren now? JENSEN: Four and two. FLINCHUM: Four and two? JENSEN: My granddaughter's four and, uh, Spencer is two. FLINCHUM: It's a fun age. JENSEN: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, they're, uh, it's a lot of fun to watch them and listen to them and the things they're learning every day. And it's a, it's a joy. It's the best, it's the best part of getting old is, uh, your grandkids if, if you're fortunate enough to have some. Yeah. FLINCHUM: Um, is there anything else you would like to say about your background before you got into politics? JENSEN: No, I don't, you know, I mean, you could talk forever about, uh, I'm fifty-seven years old, so I mean(??) there's a lot of things I could, I could talk about and think about. But I think, uh, you know, those are, those are pretty much the basics, um, up to, up to the political thing. And then(??) my law practice is still going on, you know, I still practice law. And, uh, the legislature over the years has become more fulltime, so it's getting more difficult to, to do that. But, um, um, and I still enjoy practicing law, as, as much or more than I do the political side of it. I, I do enjoy politics, but it's, uh, I, I, probably enjoy practicing law even more so. FLINCHUM: Okay. Great. [Pause in recording.] FLINCHUM: Senator Jensen, um, why don't you tell me about your early interest in politics? What do you think influenced you to get involved? JENSEN: I tell you, it, it, Jessica, it was kind of peculiar. And I was, was thinking about this just a second ago when, um, I really had no strong interest about politics at all. Uh, back in college, as I told you, I was, it was, it was the athletics in school and, and, uh, having fun and girls and whatever, you know, -----------(??), the whole college experience. But, um, I was, when I was at Cumberland College, they had a, uh, college Republican Party or college Republican club there. And I don't know if you've heard of him but Mike Duncan was the president of that and Mike today is a, um, um, pretty good, pretty big member in the, uh, National Republican Party, and I'll go into that in a little bit. But at the time, Mike was, like, president of the association, and uh, a lot, a lot of people, uh, Lynn Singleton, and, uh, uh, several, several people were really involved and, and they came to me and wanted to know if I would join, um, their party. My dad was a Republican and pretty staunch Republican; my mom was a Democrat. My mom's parents were Democrats and, from Bowling Green, obviously at that time, western Kentucky was just real dominant Democrat. But, uh, I, um, I, I was a little reluctant but there was a convention going on in Norfolk, uh, Virginia. And they said, "Well, you can go to this convention, you know, and it's just sort of a party," or something and that's about how serious I was--(both laugh)--about it at the time. So, uh, the first step to joining it was, they took me down and registered me as a Republican in Whitley County. And, um, that's, that's when I first got involved in it, went to the convention, and just kind of stayed in, uh, just stayed as a Republican, basically because I pretty much believed in the philosophy that was the philosophy of the Republican Party at that time. It's not the same as today. But in, in those days, fiscal restraint and responsibility and less government being a, a better form of government and not interfering as much in everybody's daily lives are, were basic philosophies I believed in at the time. So that's why I just remained as a Republican. And, um, really pretty well after college, didn't get involved in it. Uh, in law school, really didn't. Uh, got out of law school in 1978, and started my practice here, and, and had met, uh, Gene Huff. And Gene is a Pentecostal preacher here in Laurel County, but at that time Gene was a state senator. And Gene, uh, asked me if I would be treasurer to his Congressional race in 1980. Um, I didn't know what a treasurer was supposed to do. I assumed I just really kind of took in the money as it came in. Well, it really doesn't work that way, but I was, I was terribly naive about it, and I, I did that for Gene. That was the year probably about twelve or fourteen candidates were running because Tim Lee Carter had retired as, uh, Cong-, from the Fifth Congressional District as our congressman, uh, which took in-- it's not exactly the same now from redistricting but it was pretty much all of, of central, south-central Kentucky. Um, Laurel, Jackson County being part of the Fifth District and probably went over to as far east as around, um, I, I don't know if it even went as far east as Hazard, because we used to have seven House of Representative, congressional seats in Kentucky, well, at least at that time. But anyway, that was the election Hal Rogers won. And, um, out of about twelve or fourteen candidates, Hal, Hal, Hal Rogers won and just turned into probably the best congressman Kentucky's ever seen, uh, for, for what he's done to, for people here. I think it's, he's done a tremendous job. But at the time, I didn't, I didn't know him. And, uh, um, but that was probably my first step in politics. Then I had, uh--(laughs)--it's kinda funny how things work out; I had a very good friend here who's no longer, uh, alive by the name of Kenny Collier(??). And Kenny and I used to ride horses together. And one day he said, "I want to take you to a Republican Party meeting." And this was in 1982, I believe. Um, he said, "Well, just, just come on up with me." And I said, "Ken, I don't, you know, what, what would I've to?" He said, "Just come to the meeting. You don't have to do anything." And I didn't, I didn't really know what was involved in it, or, um, and I, and I guess through Gene Huff's campaign, I probably had registered as a Republican in Laurel County, and I'm not exactly sure when I did that. I might have done it right after college, I don't know. But anyway, and, uh, I, I, uh, came to the Republican meeting in Laurel County for the Laurel County Republican Party, and at my first meeting they elected me chairman. (both laugh) That tells you how weak the party was. There's about, uh, twenty-five people there, and Kenny started telling people that I should be the chairman, and they needed new blood and young people, and so they elected me. And, uh, I became chairman of the party, and that really got involved. And one thing I started doing was, um, I started meeting the magistrates here and the local politicians and the county judge and got so I was very fond of them. And we developed, uh, started trying to learn a little bit about the history, me, being a history major in college, I've always been fascinated with history of any form and tried to learn who'd been previous officeholders here. And, uh, one of the things I did as chairman, we started this, we started our Laurel County Republican Hall of Fame, and I had the magistrates pick out two in each one of their districts, and we, we, um, put in twelve the first year because we have six magistrates here. And kinda tried to build up the party a little bit. Well, uh, in 1984--I believe it was '84--I had, um--or '83--I, maybe, I'm still in, things started moving pretty quick. Some people started talking to me about running, uh, for state representative, and against incumbent, Albert Robinson. And Albert, I think had been in about thirteen or fourteen years at that time. Um, Martha Layne Collins was Governor, I remember. And, um, I pretty well got talked into running. And at that time, the district, and it was the Eighty-Fifth District, I believe, was, um, was predominantly Laurel County. Uh, it probably was all Laurel County but maybe a couple of precincts. And, uh, I ran, ran against, uh, Representative Robinson and beat him, I don't know, a hundred votes, um. And went to the legislature for the first time. And it was really--this is how naive I was--it was really my first trip to the State Capitol. I had never been there before, other than I think I was up there to be sworn in as an attorney. Uh, but I never really had looked at the representatives area of where, um, you know, the, the floor, where we are in the chambers. I didn't really even know where all that was. So, I went up and it was a, it was a good experience. It, uh, when I got there, the magnitude of it, I finally realized what I was in for. Um, I think seeing that building for the first time gave me a true appreciation of what, uh, the position was because, uh, our Capitol building is probably as beautiful a Capitol as there is anywhere in this country. And when you go there, there's a sense of pride standing there with all the marble, and, um, the history of it, and it, it just, uh, it turned into more than, more than I was probably even ready for. It, uh, it was sort of overwhelming in a way, but I got to meet a lot of nice people. And, um, I, we were a little closer in those days. It was easier to, uh, meet the legislators, and I don't know if you want me to go into this but-- FLINCHUM: --sure-- JENSEN: --we, um, in those days, they had, uh, and you had, obviously, you were in the chambers; there was a Senate chamber and a House chamber and the Capitol. But over in the annex building, they had, in the basement, we had legislative offices. Well, the legislative offices were what we call cubicles. All the legislators were in one huge room, in the basement; a hundred thirty-eight legislators with a cubicle. And the cubicle might have been--I was trying to think--we, we could sit in there, and there was a little desktop, and there was a shelf above you, and of course we had a phone there, and there was a shelf that had a dictionary up there, and our, the bills, the acts that were coming out that we're going to vote on in notebooks, up above it. And, um, it probably wasn't much more than four or five feet, uh, in, in depth and three or four feet wide. And each one of us had one of those little sections. And then in the back, there was a common area where you could, uh, where there was a coffee machine, and, um, uh, there was a shoeshine guy back there that shined shoes. (laughs) But mainly, it was just really a, a place that you could, um, get together and talk to a lot of people. And it, and I like that, uh, that, that was funny, and I guess because maybe I had my own office in a law practice, offices don't impress me that much. The cubicles were a way that, um--and I'll get, and I'll come back to this later--but it was a way to really establish some camaraderie between the legislators. We were all there. Uh, a lobbyist would come in and talk and they might talk to five or six of us at one time. Um, I think you probably were better informed as a legislator at that time than there, than there is today. And you'll see there's a real difference in today's, um, the way it is today than it was at that time. We had, um, uh, just, uh, I, I developed some friends in that session that I still have today, some very good friends. And, um, and Albert Robinson decided though that he didn't like me beating him, so he, um, ran for about two years, campaigned for about two years against me, and at that time, too, you've got a young family, you're up in Frankfort, uh, practicing law. And, um, when you run for office is the same year, you had a legislative session. And in those days, we didn't have annual sessions; we just had a biennial session every, every two years. So, the year that you're having your session for three months, or you get done about mid-April is the same year you have to run for office. And if you've got someone from the same party running against you, that election's in May. So, really when you get done with your session, you've only got a short period of time to get out and campaign. Plus, you're exhausted from the, from it and driving back and forth. But, um, but in any event, uh, Representative Robinson came back and beat me, uh, by about 100 votes. He might've beaten me 110 votes or something. I think he beat me a little worse than I beat him the two years earlier. Uh, and I pretty well thought I was through with politics at that point, um, from the standpoint that, um, you, you, you get disheartened a little bit when you lose. And I, and I feel that for any candidate that loses because most, most people that are running for office, whether it's true or not, believe they have good ideas and believe they can really help, um, and help out the community, and there's, there's some things they can do. And when you go up and make that effort and you try, uh, whether you've been in office or never been in office, uh, just trying to do it and you don't win, um, it sort of burst your balloon a little bit. So it, it, anybody that loses an election, it's pretty tough to bounce back. And, um, I just pretty well thought I was, I was through with it. Well, Representative Robinson came up to me and told me that, um, he was not going to seek reelection in the House, that he was gonna run against Senator Gene Huff, who was, who'd been the senator for a number of years. And, uh, and, and kinda encouraged me to run, which was amazing. And, um, so, I ran, almost reluctantly--(laughs)--the next time. And, uh, I, I can't remember how many were running. Um, there might've been two or three of us. Um, but was, was elected again and that would've been in nineteen eight--I guess, elected in '87, taken office '88. And, uh, served the House there and, um. Oh, there's(??) one, one, one other thing that I kinda left out. After Albert defeated me in, um, let's see if I can get my years straight. Eighty-, I was in from '85 and '86. In 1988 session, I was contacted by the floor leader in the House at that time, who was Woody Allen. And Woody asked me if I would come up and be the attorney for the Republican Caucus. Now this was when Albert was still in office as a legislator. And, um, I said, "Yeah, I'll come up." So, I, I was the attorney for the Republican Caucus at that time. And, that put me in stew with, and got to know some of the new members that had come in after I lost, and, and there's a, there's always quite a turnover in the House of Representatives. The old, it's, uh, there's always people that lose and, or not running back. And so, there's new members there that I got to know again and was encouraged to run by them, including Representative Robinson, to run again. So, I did run again and was elected in, uh, 1988 and, uh, or '87, or I guess it was '88. And served that next term. Um, and Senator Al-, Representative Robinson ran for the state Senate and lost to Gene Huff. So he was out and, um, and I served two years later, while I was in the House, uh, the members, um, encouraged me to run for floor leader. And at that time, uh, the Republican Party was the minority in, in every branch of government. I mean, um, we hadn't had a Republican Governor since Louie Nunn left in 1971--or no, I guess it was, uh, I don't know, '72, I guess was when his last year, '71 or '72. Um, we hadn't, the Senate was at that time might've had eight Republicans out of thirty-eight, so it would've been about thirty, thirty, uh, Democrats to eight Republicans in the Senate. In the House, we were probably in our twenties, uh, out of a hundred, maybe twenty-eight, twenty-nine members. So, when we, when I ran for, um, floor leader, which of course is a minority position, and actually the position's called Minority Floor Leader, if you're in the minority party, um, C. D. Noland, from Estill County, and myself, C.D. ran for caucus chairman and I ran for floor leader and Jim Zimmerman was our whip. Uh, we didn't really run as a slate, although C.D. and I had been, been pretty good friends. Um, and Jim was, too, but C.D. and I, uh, kinda formed a little coalition together to get our votes together. And I, I won that, beating an incumbent, Bill Strong, who was out of Hazard at the time. Um, it was interesting days then. Don Blandford was the speaker of the House. Uh, this was all pre-BOPTROT. And, um, to give you a little flavor of what it was like for legislators at that time, um, like I said, we're all in cubicles, we all had small offices. Uh, we, um, in the evenings, um, you'd go out to dinner a lot of times together. A lot of times lobbyists were taking you out to dinner, inviting you out to dinner. When I was floor leader, I could go out maybe to dinner and be sitting in a place like the Flynn's, which was sorta a political place up there; it doesn't exist anymore, but they had all over the, um, building on the inside there would be posters of, political posters. It was just really a, a history lesson in politics when you walked in there. But I could be sitting in there and having dinner with a group of legislators or something and when I was leaving ask, uh, Flynn, you know, he, he might be around and, and, or the waitress, you know, "Where's the check?" And some lobbyists had paid your way. You didn't even know necessarily who did it. Or, um, it wasn't like at that, in those days, even though it's been portrayed differently, it wasn't like people were buying your vote, these lobbyists. Of course, they got chummy, and, you know, you, you got so you knew them, and you liked some of them, and some of them became friends, and those kinds of things, and that makes it a little hard to turn down. But if you, you know, philosophically, uh, you still had to, if you're honest, I think or, if you wanted to get reelected, you had to look at what your constituents wanted. So, I really never had a problem telling a lobbyist I couldn't be for their bill, even if they were a friend. Um, if, if it was something my constituents didn't want or I, or I thought they wouldn't want, or I thought it didn't benefit them in any way, um, but, some other people, people--and maybe, maybe it does on some other legislators, it affects you. It probably does affect you some because you do, it's a little harder to say no to a friend that it is to someone you don't know. FLINCHUM: Right. JENSEN: But it was a little chummier, a little friendlier, in those days. It was, um, it was, um, we did a lot of things but in, in, the Democratic Party controlled things so dominantly, it was so powerful that, uh, the Republicans could make very little difference up there. As a matter of fact, we had very little say. And when it came to budget items, we got very little. You had to go through the Governor's office if you wanted anything, and had to get the Governor on board, uh, to help you with it because, ordinarily, I, I mean, I'm talking about a special project or something. So, I saw my roll up there at that particular time as, as a couple: one, to buildup the Republican Party, because without numbers we couldn't really have, uh, we couldn't be a factor in making policy; um, two, I wanted to do what I could do. Um, it's, it's no fun just being up there, to me, drawing a check, because the check's not that good. (laughs) I mean, I could be back here making a lot more money than in the legislature at any-, at anytime, now or even in those days. It was, it was the fact of being a participant that I wanted to be. And it was very difficult in those days. So, as, as floor leader, we raised our numbers up. I mean, we, we were ac-, actually out recruiting candidates and we got it up to about as high as thirty-eight, I think, when I was floor leader. And redistricting took us back down a little bit, but we had, um, we, we worked hard on that. I would look at bills a lot of times, maybe not sponsoring them, because bills that I would sponsor usually didn't get anywhere, but maybe an amendment to a bill I, I could maybe pass, or offering some suggestions to the sponsor to change it around, and those kind of things. You had to do things a little bit more undercover because they didn't really want to give Republicans credit for anything on either side, uh, in the Senate or the House. And it was, was really a dominant political atmosphere with the Democrat Party. Now, were we enemies? No. I liked Don Blandford. Um, he was a, um, he was a, a man of his word. If he gave you his word that something would happen, it would. We had to fight over our committee assignments and those kind of things, but I, well, we'd get to name the number of seats that we had for each committee. And, and those are important, you know. People, some people, a lot of people want to be on appropriations and revenue because they can have a little say, and, and those kind of things. Um, and we had economic development and just, you know, natural resources, and health and welfare, and all kinds of committees that, that a floor leader would assign people to. So it gave me a little more, I think, interest in, uh, in what I was doing up there, and it became, uh, it became more of a, um, I, I think that's when I really got involved in politics is when I became floor leader. It became, uh, important to me. And I saw that I was a player, not a just somebody up there that really had no role in it, like, because we were in such minority. But as the minority floor leader, when I got, when I was controlling, like, and, and I can't say absolutely controlling, but I could sway maybe thirty-four votes as floor leader rather than just my one. All of a sudden, the Democrat Party looked at me a little differently. And things, they would accommodate me a little more on things that we were trying to get done. So, I felt like, um, it was important but I made a commitment, too, that I would not have that for more, longer than two terms, that I just, two terms would be it. Um, so, I, I stayed in that. And, um, during that period of time, when I was floor leader, the BOPTROT investigation started. And at that particular time, it was, um, it was not a pleasant place to be. Um, the FBI came in and grabbed a lot of people that were friends, that became friends. And, and were charging people, and investigation and there, and there became a real, um, I suppose a real uneasiness even talking to friends because you weren't sure who was wired up, who was double-crossing who. We'd seen where, you know, some of these lobbyists were setting up legislators. Um, and it looked, it, it just became really bad and a lot of paranoia, it did(??). Uh, during that period of time, uh, I had pretty much made up my mind that I was going get out of the legislature after, after, um, I guess it was '90, uh, 1994 and that's what I was finishing up as floor leader. So, I was gonna, I was just gonna leave, uh, after that session then. And, uh, and get back to the law practice, and my family, and, and those kind of things. It wasn't, it, it was sort of I had enough of being gone away from home and that traveling back and forth. And, um, it was time for me to come back. And, uh, but in that same period of time, the investigation the, the FBI was having became broader and broader. And they started looking at a lot of people. Well, all of a sudden my name surfaced and not in, not in what they call BOPTROT, but in Humana, a Humana investigation. Uh, Humana was, uh, was about Humana hospitals. BOP--let me go back--BOPTROT was about, at that time we used to have a committee called B-O-P, Business Organizations and Professions. They changed the name now because it got such a bad name(??). Well, they had jurisdiction over, like a racetracks, and racetrack dates, and things like that, and that's where this TROT came into. And apparently in that investigation, some of the people on the committee, they felt like had taken some money to vote for some days to be open at a racetrack. Um, apparently, the key lobbyist on that had gotten in trouble, and he was acting as an informant to the FBI when they were doing their investigation. As this investigation progressed, they got into a lot of different things; some multi-county banking legislation, uh, which had happened several years earlier, but another thing was this Humana legislation, which had happened like two or three years earlier. And I was up there at the time. And Humana wanted to go, get beyond the certificate of need process. And, uh, hospitals and medical professions have to apply for a certificate of need. So that they, um, they have to establish that there is a need for that community for that particular type of, whether it's a hospital, whether it's, um, um, a MRI machine, whatever. Uh, and that's so that it is not duplication of services down there and they can afford to operate it with the expenditures they're gonna make, and particularly in hospitals, expanding beds, nursing homes, those kinds of things all have to go through a certificate of need. Well, Humana wanted to bypass that. They wanted to expand their services and it came up in front of a committee I was on called state government. Um, I eventually voted in favor of Humana being able to do what they did. Later on, it came to my attention, and Bill Strong, who was floor leader then, and who I had beaten in, um, '91, I guess, um, Bill--or had started serving in '90, in '91, '91 session, I guess that would be--but we voted in BOPTROT before that, and Bill sent a letter over to a guy at the Humana and said, "Here are the Republicans who helped you. You know, you always want to donate to Democrats; here's the Republicans who helped you on this thing," and my name was on the list. So they started an investigation about me. And, um, in that, uh, you know, I, they were, and it became a real unpleasant to me because they wanted to see, uh, like, my calendar, and where I was on certain days, and all this kind of stuff, and, um, subpoenaed records and things like that. And so, I got real, pfff, I'd, I'd had enough of this stuff, but I didn't want to leave under those circumstances, because I said, "If I, if I leave now, the legislature, people will think I'm leaving because of this investigation." And even though I had planned to quit in, in, um, nineteen-, I guess at the end of 1996. Yeah, I stayed till '98; at the end of 1996, and, and that was the last time I was floor leader, too. I was floor from, um, '92 to '96, so what I'm saying is that, some of these years I'm probably getting a little confused on. But '92 to '96, those four years I think is, is when I was floor leader. Um, in any event, I left, um, I left, instead of leaving, I ran again, even though I told everybody I wasn't gonna do it, so that's why I wasn't floor leader again. Because I wasn't intending to come back and I told everybody I wasn't gonna be. So, even though I had some members ask me, since they found out I was running again, to stay on as floor leader because, we had things pretty, pretty well calmed down, uh, we were getting along pretty good with the Democrats and those kind of things, I just said, "No, I gave my word and won't do that." But I stayed around two years longer just because of that investigation, and finally was cleared of that, or whatever, they sent back the documents that they had asked me to produce and nothing ever came about it. But it sorta left a bad taste in my mouth about politics and made me a little more, uh, aware of what, um, how you need to act up there. Uh, it was a real bad time for a lot of people. And, um, you know, it's not just any impropriety. I'm not sure how many people did improper things but it sure better not even look like it. And because of those things, and I was there, uh, obviously after BOPTROT, the legislature changed. And we developed a code of ethics that was stronger than any, any one we had in the country. And I was part of that, being a floor leader. And we had a no cup of coffee rule that leg-, lobbyists couldn't even give you a cup of coffee. A funny thing, even last night, I was in Jackson County for, um, Jackson Energy Picnic thing, our annual meeting, I guess they call it. And a lobbyist was there that I know and have known for a long time. And I was going up in-line to get a Coke, and he was with me, and, uh, somebody stopped me, um, a constituent, and started talking to me about something that he needed help with. So, the lobbyist kept walking up there and I noticed he had some money on him and he said, "What do you want?" And I said, "I want a Pepsi," but I said, "You can't buy it for me." Now technically he can, but he'd have to file a report and I would, too, over, over a soft drink--(both laugh)--and, you know, I don't want to do that. So, my, my position always has been, since all of this has come up, to not take anything from a lobbyist. I think they're allowed to do like a hundred dollars and re-, as long as they report it. So, I never let a lobbyist do anything for me anymore. Uh, still friends with a lot of them; this guy was a friend of mine. Uh, he represents all the coops around the state. Um, a good friend, but because of BOPTROT, it all changed. Then you started seeing a direction that, um, the legislature wanted to create offices and they wanted, they, they decided they wanted to have more and more office space. And this is while I was still there, too. So we left the cubicles, I guess, the last year I was in office at that time, and we had offices. And they started, they took over, pretty much, the annex building, uh, at least the second through fourth floors. Um, the second floor's where the Senate office buildings are and the third and fourth floor is where the House office buildings are now, uh, House offices are now in the Annex. I, uh, don't like it near as much but I served one time like that and then left and became chairman of the Republican Party. And I may be skirting through too much and if you want to ask questions in between, fine. I'm just kinda trying to keep a little flow. But, um, it was time for me to get out of Frankfort. I was just fed up with it. Uh, the, the investigation, the changes that were going on and, um, and, um, and but I still had intention to build up the Republican-- [Pause in recording.] JENSEN: --as well as chairman, uh, one of the things that I, there's a lot of responsibilities there but the main thing that I wanted to do was increase their numbers in the legislature and around the state. And I think as a chairman I was pretty successful. Um, we started making changes. Uh, at the, at the time, in that, in that span of time, uh, we had grown in our Congressional races and in the state Senate and the House. Um, we had increased our numbers in every, in every position in Congress. Um, at one time here, we had about--let me go back to, I guess, nineteen ninety-one or -two. [Nineteen] ninety- one, I think. Stop this a minute. [Pause in recording.] JENSEN: Re-, re-, go back a little bit, Jessica, because I know I said, misstated this. Um, when I was floor leader, it was, it was for the period of 1991 through '93 and ninety, ninety--let's see--'91 and '92 and then, I would've been floor leader in '93 and '94. Yeah, because I left in '96 and when I was talking about before, '98, it really wasn't; I left in 1996. And the last two years that I was unhappy and, and stayed from was really 1994 to '96. And BOPTROT was going on in all that period of time. And by the time I left in '96, that investigation was over and they were done with it and that's why I got out. But I made up my mind I was going to stay until they finished that investigation, so that it didn't look like I, I was leaving for some reason of this investigation. But going back, when I was floor leader from '91 through '94, that four-year span, redistricting is took place. And, um, at that time, there were seven House of Representative Congressional seats, obviously, two US Senators. We had roughly in the--and I, and I may be wrong about this--but we had roughly in the Kentucky Senate maybe about, uh, they might've grown to about twelve members, uh, if they were even that much in '91, it might've been less than that. We, um, the Democrat Party decided that we, that because we're going to lose one Congressional seat--we had seven--uh, the, uh, House of Representatives seats, and because their population hadn't grown with the rest of the country, they decided they would, out of the six districts, they were gonna make them all Democrat district. Two of the districts in Kentucky had been voting Republican for a long time, won this Fifth District down here. And, and in our part of the state, Laurel County, surrounding Pulaski, and all this, had been Republican since the Civil War. The other part that had been Republican primarily was Northern Kentucky. It was changing and that area was up there where Gene Snyder had been congressman and, and Jim Bunning had just been elected as congressman. So, the Democrats, in redrawing the districts--and they pretty much had control of doing that--they, um, made them all Democratic districts. They stretched the Fifth District out over into, over to Pikeville. And because of the population in Eastern Kentucky, which had been heavily Democrat, it swi-, it switched them all to Democrat districts. And so, Congressman Rogers had to now run in a, in a new district. I mean, he had part of his old, but he had substantial amount of new. So did, so did Congressman Bunning. By virtue of that, we started gaining seats in Congress. Um, the first one, there, there'd been a congressman named, uh, Natcher, in the Second Congressional District for years and years. I don't know how many years he served, thirty-something years, I guess. And, um, Ron Lewis, uh, Mr., Congressman Natcher died, Ron Lewis succeeded him, and that was a Republican breakthrough. So, then we had, Hal Rogers had won, Jim Bunning had won, Ron Lewis had won. Now, all of a sudden, we got three out of six. Then, out in western Kentucky--which the numbers, if you looked out there on registration, it'd be seven to eight-to-one, um, Republican--I mean, Democrat--um, maybe larger than that. Um, we found a candidate over there and now won, won that one. So, we held that Congressional seat. Then, Anne Northup, who actually served with me in the, uh, House of Representatives, ran in Jefferson County. And we ended up taking that over. And we, before long, we were holding five out of the six Congressional seats, is Republicans, with the population better than 60 percent Democrat in Kentucky. But we started seeing a trend and things started changing. And, um, we started growing in the, in the state Senate. So, when I became--and in the House, too--so, when I became chairman of the Republican Party in 1996, one of the roles, two of the roles, well, one of the roles was raise money for candidates. But, the second one--and all of this was always designed to increase our numbers and those were some of the things that we did. We increased our numbers on these Congressional races. I was in several of them. I think, Ed Whitfield was elected while I was chairman, uh, Anne Northup was, um, Bunning became our second US Senator. I mean, we, we, Mitch McConnell, for a long time, we didn't have anybody. Now Mitch McConnell, then we had Jim Bunning join him, so we then, now have two US Senators and controlled five out of the six Congressional seats for a period of time, and still do. Um, the only Democrat that's holding a Congressional seat is, is Ben Chandler right now, and before that it was Ken Lucas. So, it's just, uh, um, the Republican Party has really grown in Kentucky and changed. When I became chairman, it was--I don't remember exactly what our percentage was on registration but it was, it was something less than 40 percent, uh, for, for Republicans; we're over that now. And so there's a trend here. It's becoming more and more Republican. And that's not just me or Senator McConnell or, you know, no, no one person can take credit for it. But I think nationally there's been a real impact based on, uh, what's perceived as liberal Democrat, national candidates and conservative Republican candidates and pretty much, Kentucky's a conservative state. People here, we have conservative values, and so, it, that is all added to it and made it change on, uh, what's going on politically. But that was my role, and we, we wanted to try to raise money. And the one significant thing, I think, that I did, in the past every chairman of the Republican Party had, had given, everybody's running a little bit if they had a contested race, you might get five hundred dollars. If, if I was running against a Democrat, I might get that from the party. What I did was saying, five hundred dollars really doesn't help; it doesn't decide an election one way or the other. So, we took what money we had, and it wasn't a great deal of money because we're still the minority party, and focused in on just a few races. We picked where candidates had the best chance. So, we were giving, like, candidates, twenty-five thousand, instead of the five hundred or a thousand dollars they traditionally got. And we could make a difference in some of those races. Brett Guthrie, who's out of Bowling Green, will still say--now I serve with him in the Senate--but, he still says, "You know, I, I owe you a lot because you, while you were chairman, you sent the money down to our campaign, and we really needed it, and we won." And that was the first time that he'd won. So, there was a lot of good things that came about that and I, I felt pleased with, uh, what I did as chairman of the party and, uh, as minority floor leader. When, in 1991, we had, um, going back to that, when, when redistricting came about, and that comes about because of the census, every ten years, they do a census. So, we're obligated to re-, redraw our lines every ten years. And it usually takes a year, uh, for us to be back in session after the census is completed to do that. And, uh, Don Blandford was the speaker of the House when, uh, when we redoing the House, uh, redistricting. And because I was floor leader, he said, "I want you to, you can draw the lines up at ten districts down, down in your way," meaning around Laurel County, Pulaski, Jackson County. The problem was that, um, out of the ten districts that he was allowing me to draw, draw up, there was eleven Republican House members. So, one guy was gonna have to go. And they, uh, it turned out, the guy that I beat, and the guy they wanted to get rid of was named Bill Strong. And Bill was out of Hazard. And I, I liked Bill. And today we're still friends. I'll see Bill all the time. But, but I ran against him and it was, it was more because of he couldn't get along with Don Blandford than any other reason. So, as, uh, as I'm doing this redistricting, the only, the only precincts that Bill had left out of the area they gave me was four precincts. So, he pretty well knew that he was finished and decided he wasn't gonna run. So, he made it a little easier on me in drawing up those lines. And we drew up the lines and, uh, based on population. Laurel County, I had to give away a few more precincts because their county had grown so much. Um, so I was representing even less of Laurel County at that time. And, um, it went like that and stayed like that until, uh, a decision came out by the Supreme Court called, um, Fischer v--uh, I don't know who it was--Joe Fisher brought the lawsuit about redistricting. I guess it was versus the General Assembly or something, they had, and I, I, I can't remember, uh, how it was styled but in it the court held that, that the redistricting that'd been done in 1991 was unconstitutional. And that they couldn't divide counties; they, they had divided too many small counties and they should divide as few a counties as possible. Now, the significant part of that is obviously there's some counties you have to divide: Jefferson County. At that time thirty-six thousand people were going in per district, House district. I think it was thirty-six, it maybe thirty-eight. Um, if Jefferson County, where there was, you know, nearly a million people obviously, they had to divide it up. Uh, Laurel County, because we were over thirty-six thousand, we had divided. And you know like I was telling you, I was always giving away precincts because we were too big for one district. Uh, some of the smaller counties, like, um, Jackson, um, they couldn't divide because they had, they didn't have enough population, uh, for even one. I think the Supreme Court decision is an incorrect decision based on, uh, what our forefathers did. But, but whatever the Supreme Court decides is law, so you gotta accept that. But when they redi-, because of the, of the decision they made, and they said the fewest number of counties have to be divided as possible--not as practical--uh, but as possible, if you got on the computer and try to determine how many counties were gonna have to be divided, the fewest number, it always came up the same. And it took the counties that were already divided, had to be divided. So, Laurel, being one of those, uh, it was a, it was Laurel and Pulaski was looked at as possible counties to be divided even more. Um, Bell County could've been. There was a couple of counties, a couple other counties that could've been, but if you really checked with a computer, it had, it came down to about four counties you really had to chop up. Two of them were Democrat counties, two of them were Republican. So, because the Democrats were still in control--and this was one other reason that motivated me when I became chairman of the Republican Party to build up our party. But, uh, they chopped up Laurel County into five legislative districts and Pulaski County into five. And those are the two biggest Republican counties in this part of the state. So, it, when I left, it forced me to say, you know, until we really become a, a true party in the state, where we can take over one of these chambers, uh, the Democrat Party can always do that. They can, and, and the, and the significant part of that is not that we didn't elect Republicans, but you didn't have a representative mainly from that county. Uh, Laurel County, and what I even resented at the time, and I, I think a lot of Marie Rader, who's, who's a representative over here now and the representatives that we got representing Laurel County, but, at the time I left we had five legislative districts in Laurel County, House districts, and not one of them lived in Laurel County. So we gained in numbers but no one had that particular interest of this county looking out for this county. Um, the guy that ran against Marie Rader this time, John Scovell(??), basically was using that as a campaign issue. He said, "Isn't it time that we have a person from Laurel County being a representative of Laurel County?" And it was a pretty effective ad. Uh, he didn't win but it was an effective ad. And, and he didn't win because Marie, Marie Rader, out of Jackson County, who has, who has a big chunk of Laurel, uh, had really worked hard in the campaign and comes over here and pays a lot of attention to Laurel County. So, uh, I think she was rewarded. But now, the next time when she ever retires, it probably will not be a Jackson Countian that's selected as that, for that district. And as Laurel keeps growing, um, they're gonna, and, and it's gonna grow just by virtue of, of where we're located, it's, um, more and more population from Laurel County is going to be put on to like, Jackson County's representative, too. So, it's, uh, it's gonna be difficult for it to hold. But there was a period of time that I argued that Laurel County had to be divided at least once, you know, because we're too big for that, but you didn't have to cut it up five ways. So, uh, I saw that, um, until we became a majority or until we controlled one house in the legislature, um, the Democrats were just gonna have free will and chop up whatever counties they wanted to. And so, it made me work even harder as chairman. FLINCHUM: Why do you think it is that in some regions of Kentucky that've been traditionally very strongly Democrat, uh, in recent years they tend to vote for different parties depending on whether it's a local, state, or national elections? Why, why do you think the dual partisanship is there? JENSEN: I, Jessica, I think Kentucky, at least my understanding of the history here, has always been pretty much a Democrat state. I mean, it's, it's, um, in what, and, and my understanding is it goes back to the Civil War, pretty much, you know, that it goes back to that and I think there's some truth to that. A lot of people register the same as their parents. For no particular reason, you, you just do it. I mean, you know, you, um, and probably, one, well, one reason that I was a Republican is because of my father, I'm sure. Um, but I, and I think Kentucky's done that. When I started seeing a real difference was when, when the issues started coming in that touched on the moral, what I'll call moral issues. Abortion, and particularly abortion, made a real change probably in this country but particularly in Kentucky. You had a lot, a lot of people, you know, Kentucky's in the Bible belt, uh, especially southern Kentucky, whether it's east and west. Um, if you ever looked at a map, um, twenty, twenty years, just twenty years ago, you would see that in western Kentucky it was solid Democrat. You just never elected any Republicans over there for anything. In far eastern Kentucky, it was all solid Democrats. No one, and, and some of that was that, you know, like the Kennedys coming down in the sixties and Appalachia, and talking about that, and saying, bringing in, um, some giveaway programs and those kind of things. And they became beholding to the Democrat Party over it. Uh, there was a lot--and I, and I don't mean that in a negative way. I think everybody had good intentions about it. I'm not so sure it's the best way to approach something. But when you started really seeing a difference in Kentucky, in my judgment, was over the moral, what we call moral issues. And, and, and basically that's been broken down to abortion. I think most people in Kentucky, men and women who have a certain religious background are opposed to abortion. And they don't necessarily believe in pro-, uh, pro-choice, and, or the pro-choice position. So, we started seeing people, like, in northern Kentucky, which was, had been strong Democrat area, winning up there, and in Louisville. Uh, Louisville has a strong base of, um, of, um, Catholic, uh, population there. So, we started seeing Republicans elected in the House and Senate out those areas and out of Northern Kentucky, which had been traditionally Democrat. And then we started cutting into eastern and western Kentucky. A little bit here and there, um, just with members. But I think that's probably been the big difference is, is that one particular issue. Um, because if you look at the Republican Party nowadays and what it was under Eisenhower, or, um, in the, in the early days, and it, and it started changing with, with Reagan, really. It, uh, when he had behind him solidly the Jerry Falwell's and all these people, it brought these issues out to the forefront, and you started seeing a real change in it. But, um, I'd say nationally it had more to do with it more than anything. And, and a lot of times you were seeing in elections nationally the Republicans were winning Kentucky but not in the local races. Was local people started running on the issue, you had all of a sudden coming out of being anti-abortion, for example. And the national party, Democrat Party, standing up there, the candidate for president is sitting there saying, "You know, I'm, I'm, I'm in favor of abortion," or whatever a pro-, you know, a woman's right to choose. Well, that candidate running as a Democrat, even though it's locally, it kinda brought them out as saying, "Are you supporting this person or not?" And they made it a sole issue. Now, I've never liked the single-issued candidates necessarily but it's what is, has caused the Republican Party to grow. I, I think that more than anything else that, that issue. And it's changed the landscape of Kentucky. And it's given, because some, some people started winning on that, it gave some Kentuckians hope, Republicans hope that they could win, which culminated even in, in Governor Fletcher winning. Um, I mean, it's been a battle. And a unfortunately, it's probably, um, not turned out too well. But it's, uh, when you think thirty-two years since we've had, between having a Republican Governors, that's just a long time. A lot older than you are. (both laugh) So. FLINCHUM: Okay, good answer. Um, what about some of your career highlights? I have a list of some committees that, that you served on in the House. And I'll check and make sure I have this right: natural resources, special districts, uh, appropriation and revenue, economic development, tourism, state government? Uh, that's impressive. JENSEN: Well-- FLINCHUM: --what are some of your, the accomplishments you're most proud of? JENSEN: You know, as, as I was telling you, when you're in the minority, um, you didn't really, you could, it was not, you couldn't really sponsor bills. It was participation and there was the thoughts. It was the, um, it was trying to make bills a little bit better. One thing in the, in the KERA bill that I felt real good about--because they wouldn't really let Republicans have their fingerprints on that at the time and the Democrats were so dominantly controlling--is that I put in a provision, an, an amendment, about having a counselor at every school, which, uh, I remember some Democrats drew up some support and we passed the House. The Senate killed it. But it, because it was a Republican idea. In those days, the Republicans' ideas, if their name was on it, it was beat. So, you'd have to go around and say, "You know, I'd like to, you know, here, I think this should be amended that way." Or as long as my name wasn't on it, it was fine. And, uh, I think by virtue of the kind of law practice I've had, I was able to contribute in a lot of things when people came up with criminal statutes and things of that nature, what(??) they were proposing that I could make it better. And I still do that even in the Senate today. I, I saw a bill here the other, we have one about, uh, causing damage to a, um, state park. And the way it was drafted is if you just backed up on a blade of grass you could've been charged with a criminal offense, you know, without intentionally doing it or intentionally trying to cause any harm or negligently or anything like that, I mean. So, I mean, people, people have a, that don't have a background in law kinda have a hard time distinguishing between negligence, which is a civil cause of action, and intentional actions, which can be a crime. So, I try to watch those things and try to make bills a little bit better even to this day. One of the, one of the most significant things that turned out significant, I think, was, has happened since I've been in the Senate, and is--my name's not on the bill but I presented a bill that ended up, um, Lieutenant Governor Pence took some of it and added some more things, but was on methamphetamine. Um, to actually place ephedrine and pseudoephedrine behind the counter, which is the law today. Um, I'd seen in my law practice such an outbreak of methamphetamine use, uh, and the disaster that it's causing in our, our nation, and it's, and it's an epidemic. I hope generations that, if they listen to this in the future that it no longer exists. It causes, it's caused all kinds of social problems. It's easily and readily available. It's easily to be, you know, you can make it easy. It's, uh, you can make it out of legal substances. Uh, for rural areas it's just a disaster because they can make it, and the fumes and stuff, but you can go out in an area where there's not much population, people don't smell it. You can go out here in a forest area or, or ride around in your car, and make this stuff. And, uh, it's just a disaster. It's very addictive, it's caused, uh, all kinds of medical problems, and, uh, it's a very dangerous, it can explode, it's volatile. So, I wanted to see some way to slow that down because I knew you couldn't stop it. So it was looking around the country and I saw where Oklahoma had tried this, where they were putting it behind the counter, and people would have to, and actually limiting the amount you could buy. Well, we have now done that. And I came up with a bill, Senate Bill 56, in nineteen--in 2005, the first year I's back in the Senate. And, uh, wanted to, um, make that, make that law. Well, we ended up doing a combination bill, and I think it was Senate Bill 63 that ended up taking part of my bill, adding some other things that, um, Lieutenant Governor Pence wanted to add, and made a good bill. And I saw were it has cut down the number of labs they're finding in Kentucky. Uh, there's about, I mean there's been a cut like 40 percent less. So, I've been very proud of that bill because it's one that I saw really have results, and I really believed in it. And I'd argue with lobbyists about it because they didn't--Pfizer who makes ephedrine and pseudoephedrine didn't like the bill. And it's a big company to deal with, and they had a lot of lobbyists, so we had to fight with them. And, um, and they were going around trying to kill the legislation the whole time. But we prevailed and showed that it was the best thing to do. Part of the effort was to unite, Congressman Rogers came up with, and, and actually did a presentation and a rally up in Frankfort, uh, over, over my legislation, really, on, on putting it, sort of the format that Oklahoma had adopted. And, um, we got the ball rolling and passed that. So, I've been happy with that. Um, this past legislature, I, I'm real happy with the accomplishments we've made in the budget process. We did, we did a lot for education, probably more for education than we have in the past fourteen years. But locally, I was real proud to, uh, work on some things down here in the budget that, uh, we've never done before. Um, through my relationship with, um, Bill Nighbert, who's secretary of transportation. And I've known Bill for a long time; he used to be Mayor of Williamsburg. And the, and that's the one thing I think I can offer at this stage in my life, and one of the reasons I ran back for the Senate, was because even though I hadn't been, been in for a number of years, I'd made these relationships by being chairman of the Republican Party, formerly serving in the House, being involved in national politics. It gave me some real connections with people and Bill Nighbert was one of them. Now he's secretary of transportation. I saw an opportunity when we elected Governor Fletcher who actually, uh, when I was floor leader, served under me in the House of Representatives and then he went onto Congress, of course. But he, he was elected to Congress while I was chairman of the Republican Party and we were helping him with money there. So, when he was running in the fall, uh, for Governor, he actually asked me to handle seven counties for him down this way. So, I ran, ran his campaign in seven counties. So I thought, Well, after he got elected, it's an opportunity for me to go up and use the friendship and influence that I've developed over the years to really accomplish some things for Laurel County. And I was looking pretty much at Laurel County at the time. But my district is, in the Senate, is Laurel, Jackson, Estill, Powell and Menifee. And as I was traveling around there, too, I started seeing some needs of Jackson and Estill and Powell and Menifee. So, this, this past session, in, um, 2006 session has been a joy to me because it was, for the first time, we've really been able to bring some things home to our area. Um, one thing that I've been vitally interested in is, um, is infrastructure because that's the key to having a quality of life here, not only for the homes and residences, but, um, actually to attract business. And when we're talking about infrastructure, you're talking about roads, sewer, water, those kind of things. So, in, in Jackson County alone we put a million and a half dollars into, uh, sewer, sewage project over there. And I, I was able to find a million dollars to add to that. That was, it was $500,000 that, um, was initially put in, but the Senate increased those numbers, so we added another million to it, that'll, that'll help that sewage system go on. In Laurel and Jackson County combined, in those two counties we got a $100,000,000 worth of road projects that are gonna be done over the next couple of years, uh, including my number one priority for Jackson County--completing Highway 30. Um, I really pushed with that with Bill Nighbert, and he's put, he's fully funded it for 2007, and we passed that in the six-year road plan at $27,000,000 from the Rockcastle River over to Welchberg Road over in Jackson. So, I'm, I'm real pleased with that and consider that a significant accomplishment because that's something that should've been done years and years ago. And Jackson County will never be able to progress as, with industry or business until they've got one decent road in and out of there. And I think 30 will accomplish that. We also put in money for, over, over there of about, of million dollars to look at 421 and to study it and how we can make that better. That's going to be a little bit tougher to do but I think 30 will get, will get, will get the residents of Jackson County out to I-75 which should allow some business to be attracted in there, some industry. It'll make it easier to come to Laurel County, where we're growing leaps and bounds because we are on I-75 with industry. And I think that Jackson County could become almost a bed-, uh, bedroom community for Laurel County as the industry develops, where people can come over here to work, which a lot of them do already, and go back home and live in a nice community. But it'll also allow, uh, I think some industry to come in there, too. And it'll give Jackson County a chance to really develop. I was thrilled with that. And we did some other little projects over there like building money for fire department and those kind of things. In Laurel County, uh, I wanted to really, really bring some things in here that, cause we've been neglected, too, for a long time. And, um, so, we put in a couple million dollars for a community pool out here. We got a $14,000,000 building for our community college campus, um, which is still part of Somerset Community College, but it's in the area of health technology. So, there, there's going to be some nursing courses offered there. And I, I think a degree program but also lab techs, uh, things in the health area that'll be technical in nature. And I think that that'll help develop and create some more jobs here. Somerset Community College is also thinking about bringing over there their pharmacy techs, and that kind of goes in, in combination with what we're doing down in the Cumberland, if that ends up having a pharmacy college, if the constitution allows that. So that was developing. We put in a historical museum, um, money for a historical museum and bought, gave them enough money in Laurel County to purchase another industrial park, because we've now filled up our fourth industrial park and, and just growing. So, all those things I'm really proud of those accomplishments. Um, and I've got to say that, uh, probably the biggest, it, that's been enjoy-, enjoyable to me to bring some things home. It's a little different than my philosophy. Uh, my philosophy is really that government should not spend a lot of money. And, uh, that we need to, uh, not tax people overly and, and keep their taxes low and, um, assist people, but I think in the long run these things will pay off, um, because we had, we had to get something first before, uh, we need to look at that frugal end of it because we had, we had nothing. Jackson County, for example, had been neglected probably since Louie Nunn was Governor. Because one thing about Jackson County, your home area, and when I was chairman of the Republican Party, I was always proud of Jackson County because it always had the highest percentage of Republicans in the state, voting in every election, every one, and still does today! About 90 percent of every, when they have a statewide election, 90 percent Republican out of, out of Jackson County. And it always ranks first. And because of that, they haven't really gotten anything. So I wanted to see that they got some things. Over in Estill County, I brought in enough money for them to get a biodiesel plant over there, so that's some, a futuristic goal for them. And, uh, working on some road projects over there for them, too. So, and more sewage and water in, um, in Laurel County. We did $5,000,000 worth of sewage projects here. Those are the kind of things that are really help people, I think. And, um, I'd like to, uh, continue that as much as I can for our area, but, I'm, I think we'll probably have to look at it in the, in the next, next couple of years maybe more of a bare bones budget, because we probably did do a little more bonding this time than, than we should've. Uh, from the standpoint of being solid, um, uh, when you're trying to keep down your debt. And, and when I, but when I say that I still think we did the best thing for it, because I think we're gonna spur the economy a little bit and we're gonna spur some growth, and I think in the long run it'll be the best thing we did, even though we may have to cut back in the next couple of years. FLINCHUM: I noticed in the past legislative session you also successfully sponsored some, uh, legislation dealing with natural resources, like surface coalmining-- JENSEN: --yep-- FLINCHUM: --um, forestry management? JENSEN: Did a lot of those things as chairman of, uh, of natural resources--I mean, over agriculture and natural resources. And I thought at first they kinda did that to punish me because, I'm not really into agriculture too much. Uh, I live in Kentucky but I never lived on a farm and never, don't know a great deal about it. I used to ride horses, that's about as close as I've come to a farm. (Flinchum laughs) But, uh, I've learned a lot in agriculture but this, what I like about chairman of that committee is the jurisdiction of it is so broad. Um, in the area of agriculture, of course, everything that has to do with farming, and that's also, um, groceries and supplies that are delivered for consumption, fertilizers, uh, everything falls under that. Um, paints, uh, anything that falls under, uh, it's, it's, it's really wild how broad this is. We're also, because of natural resources, we're into energy, telecommunication, we do phones, broadband, every energy company, all the utility companies. I have jurisdiction of the PFC(??), um, has a lot of involvement in my committee. We also are over coal mines, um, gas, natural gas, petroleum products, oil. Um, the jurisdiction is just so broad, so we get to do a lot of different things. And some of the things, I think one of the things that I'm proud about, although we've just had a real disaster in Kentucky on mine, on mine safety legislation, it was, there was a, it wasn't my bill but it was at my committee. And, um, there was gonna be a real problem getting it passed. So, I went up one day early before we started the session, I think, an early Monday when, we usually started at four, I went up like nine o'clock. And I brought together the coal industry, uh, the cabinet for natural resources who has jurisdiction over the safety issues on them, uh, labor unions, and representatives, representatives from the House and the Senate, Democrats and Republicans, and put together a small group. Well, we sat there and went through it step-by-step on the safety legislation. I think we made it as good as we could possibly make it at that time, and it, and it's, and it's passed. Now, it's not gonna stop mine deaths, but it has, as we've seen, it's happen since then. But what we did do was make a good piece of legislation based on the technology we have today. A lot of people wanted to put in some technology that doesn't work. Uh, wireless communication, they said, so we can know where some of them, or GPS systems on all the miners. The problem is you've got a mile underground with, with some of the, the structures that are over you, it just doesn't work. So, we wanted something, the, the technology is developing, but it, it's not there yet. One of the most interesting things that I discovered that I'm working on now, and hopefully this'll, this'll come in to pass, and this just happened in this mine disaster, where they're talking about their breathing apparatus. When that methane's released in the mines or something from an explosion, and they've, of course, they've got, um, their equipment that they put on, they call them self-rescuers. And it's just a breathing apparatus, which will last maybe an hour. Well, we increased the number of those to be put in but one thing that I thought was interesting was, I talked to a person who knew some NASA engineers, who'd been working on breathing apparatuses for outer space that possibly gave enough breathing, um, capability of four days, not using oxygen. You got to remember oxygen is not a good, a good, uh, source to have in an area that can be ignited through an explosion. I mean, oxygen will blow and actually create more of a blast. So, we were looking at, uh, the breathing apparatus can be different. And one guy that I've kind of talk to at NASA, that I'm going to be working on in the next year is try to develop a breathing apparatus for coal miners that can last as long as four days, maybe, uh, and each, each apparatus. And, um, we have to develop a prototype and I'm gonna be looking probably to bring in money, um, to the legislature next time to, um, award a grant to build a prototype to do that for miners. And so that's something I'm looking at for January. Um, it's not, we really can't do it in the budget but we can request the Governor maybe to do that through some excess funds that he may have. And we'll see if we can get that accomplished down the road. Um, you know, being on economic development, uh, years ago that was, that was a great committee. They, um, we'd, we'd go around and see a lot of things that were being done and that's what's giving me ideas about here. A, a great place to go, Jessica, at, at this day and time and especially if you have some historical, um, knowledge of it, is northern Kentucky area. Back, uh, as a kid when I was growing up and left there, and it, it was sort of a dump. Uh, Covington and Newport were just really dumpy areas. Newport was loaded down with strip places and it was just sort of a place that not many people wanted to go to. Uh, Covington just had been an old rundown city. Well, when, when I was on economic development in the early-, the mid-eighties, I guess, and late-eighties, we, we went up to, um, northern Kentucky and started seeing the first development along the river. Um, they were trying to do something to complement River-, Riverfront Stadium over in Cincinnati, which is no longer in existence. I mean, that came in 1971 or something but they were trying to do some things along the river. And if you go up there now and see what they've accomplished, um, it's amazing. And I can remember going up, I think it was an Embassy Suite, and it was just girders there. And we went up in an elevator, which I wasn't too happy about, and they were showing us what they wanted to do, and, um, how they were developing, and what they developed up there is great. So, economic development and tourism in, in Kentucky's been, been real important. And that was, that was a good thing about being on economic development. I think it was called, in those days, economic development and tourism. Um, and I enjoyed that. Uh, actually, um, when I was out of politics over here, I was on the Laurel County-, London-Laurel County Industrial Development Board. So it gave me a lot of insight of some things that we could try to do here, uh, to attract industry and bring in business. So, it, all these things, you know, when you start thinking about it and how it plays your whole life, uh, what you'll do in your lifetime and everybody else, it, it plays on each other. You know, you gather a little information here and there that you may not think is so significant or important to you, but later on it comes into play. And it's just like being on that committee back in, I guess it was, I think it was the mid-eighties, um, probably in the late-nineties is when I was on the economic development here, and looking at developing. And actually discussing with leaders here now, how I think we ought to approach our development in the future. And, uh, had some discussions here just this past week over doing that. So, um, all these things, it, it comes back, and it, and it kind of plays into your thought processes as, as you go along. FLINCHUM: What's your impression of the committee system as we know it now? Like with the introduction of the interim committee system in the eighties? JENSEN: Well, the interim committee system, I always felt was a little weak, um, from the standpoint that it, I think it was designed really to let legislatures get a day of pay while they weren't in session. (laughs) Uh, let's go back to when I first went in, uh, back in the eighties. At that time there was just sessions every two years. Okay, you had a, uh, there was an annual session. So, the interim committee was designed to meet when you weren't in session. And some of it was probably so that legislators could, uh, get a day up there, with pay, uh, spend the night up there. You were paid, you, you actually were reimbursed for your room and, and given a certain amount of money for meals. And when I was in the House, everybody was on at least three committees. This time they tried to put me on six; I told them I didn't want to be on six, but in the, in the Senate. But in the House, where we had all those members who were on three committees at the minimum, and then you could be on a task force here and there. And that, that reminds me, um, if, when we think about it, um, let's go in later on about the impeachment of Butch Burnette because I was one of the prosecutors on that and that's kinda, that's pretty historical. Uh, but anyway, let's go back to the commi-, if those, the committee, um, meeting process, I think a lot of it was designed for legislators to be up there. And I think there's a real movement to make the legislator fulltime. It's kinda hidden and it's kinda underneath things but I think there's a lot of members that would like to make it fulltime. Me, not one of them. And I'll tell you why. Uh, what they'll say the reason for the interim committee meetings is so that you can become knowledgeable about certain areas. And there's some truth to that. But the fact of the matter is you cannot vote any bill out of committee during the interim. We have to be in session. Legally, by our constitution, if we're not in session we can't pass any legislation. You can't even bring it out of committee to have it ready to pass when you're in session. So, it's almost, uh, it's, it's gather information, some knowledge, and some of that's helpful. And it's to, and it can, it, it probably is beneficial, but I, I never felt like it really was of a whole lot, uh, mainly because you have to start all over again when you're back in session. Um, I think it can play a purpose but I always thought the way we should've done it, instead of going to annual sessions, was to give authority for during the interim to study legislation and pass a bill that would be ready to go at the beginning of the session the next time. Pass it out of that committee with favorable expression, uh, rather than to start a session every year. The only real legitimate reason I could think of for having annual sessions was the budget. And, uh, I thought when they first started talking about annual sessions--and I was gone by the legislature when, when it passed as a constitutional amendment--that the reason we were doing it was so we could do the budget for one year at a time rather than try to predict what's going to happen over the two-year period. Of course that's not what happened. So, I don't know why we've done annual sessions other than to get in a position that it's becoming more and more a fulltime position. Going back into the eighties, when we were in the cubicle system and sitting down at cubicle desks, there might've been five or six people out front that were acted as our receptionist and secretaries and then there was a pool of people that would type-- [Pause in recording.] JENSEN: In, in those particular days, we had, uh, you know, the cubicles, very few people. Nowadays, you've got secretaries up there, you've got clerks up there. Every, the leadership has a number of staff people. It's becoming more and more fulltime, um, with the annual sessions. And of course, that more pay. Now, we're going to lose something and by the time anybody ever listens to this, maybe in the future, we may have already lost it. But when I first went in the legislature, we were truly a citizen legislature. You would have members from all facets of the community. You would have teachers, uh, principals, uh, were up there on a leave of absence for that session. We'd have a, um, doctors, lawyers, farmers, uh, pharmacists, uh, insurance salesmen. Uh, you had people who didn't have jobs. Um, you had all walks of life there. You'd hear a different viewpoint. Now, the trend that's becoming here is to try and make it more fulltime. And when you do that, we're going to lose the citizen legislation. It has to be done. Um, I've, I've talked to several, I'm a little different position than even a lot of lawyers. Uh, David Williams's a lawyer, Robert Stivers is a lawyer, and they told me their practice is about gone, up there. I've got three other lawyers in here with me, and a paralegal, and those kind of things. So, I think, and plus, I'm in the stage of life that I can afford not to make a great deal of money, uh, you know, at least periodically. I can afford to go out here and my family's pretty well grown and go out here and do some things that I think are beneficial to the community. But you're gonna lose out on, on a lot of people that are not willing to make that sacrifice, uh, if they've got another business. And we had business owners. And, and, you know, every two years, they were going up, uh, rather than every year, and with all these committee meanings. So, I think that we're gonna lose out on that. Now, is it going to be better or worse? I can't say. Obviously, you're gonna have a little bit more expertise as politicians if you become fulltime legislators. They'll be politicians. Will they be more knowledgeable in the areas of the community? I don't know. Uh, they could be, you know, if they've got the proper staffing, and they're really there, and they're sitting there really involved, but will they have the internal, the knowledge, uh, of actually working in that industry? No, they won't. So, there's good and bad to it. You'll have more professional politicians that'll be, um, you know, that can devote fulltime to it because that's all they'll do. It'll be like our Congress, here, I mean the Congress people. The pay will go up and, I think that's where, I think that's where it's going. I think we're gonna lose something, and I'm, I'm not real happy about that, but, but we'll, um, you know, change, there's just inevitable change. So, um, hist-, you know, the future will determine which way we were better off. Um, there's something to be said about somebody that can focus in 100 percent, you know, on the, on the job. And, and that legislators can't do now, or not many of them can afford to do. But, uh, uh, it, that's the trend it's going to. Something I forgot to tell you about before, and we'll, we'll get back into that, is, uh, Butch Burnette, who was the agriculture commissioner. And this would have been back in the nineties, too, when I was floor leader in, in one span there, sometime between '91 and '94. Butch had been our agriculture commissioner but also had been convicted of a crime. And he'd run it through the appellate process. Well, it came, it became a point that we had to, uh, he lost his appeal. And, uh, he wouldn't resign his position. So the House in an impeachment process, sort of like the federal government--and it hadn't been done in a hundred years, so nobody really knew how to do it, and we ended up getting a professor over from UK, and I don't remember his name but he was a history professor, uh-- FLINCHUM: --Bob Ireland, maybe? JENSEN: I, I can't remember, you know and I've got, I've got a box of books up there that, um, and are, actually, when we got done we kept it for historical purposes, and I think I've got it back here in storage. I'm not even sure where it is anymore. But it was interesting. In the House is where the charges had to develop, the impeachment really began. But the trial itself was in the Senate. So, I was appointed as one of the prosecutors, uh, the, uh, now our attorney general, Greg Stumbo was our chief prosecutor. He was majority floor leader and I was minority floor leader. I was one of the prosecutors. Congressman Anne Northrop was one of the prosecutors. And I don't remember who all we had but there was about five or six of us out of the hundred members in the House. We started gathering information and evidence and presented it, uh, sort of the House acted as the grand jury. We made a presentation of the evidence against Butch Burnette and they decided that impeachment was the process. And the whole time, we're, we're being led through this by pretty much historians to tell us how to do this--(Flinchum laughs)--because we just hadn't ever done it. And there really wasn't anything, any guidelines on it. But it was interesting, and the day we went over, that the trial was supposed to began in the Senate, Butch Burnette resigned. So, we didn't have to, we didn't have to do it, and that ended it. But, uh, it was an interesting process and one of the more interesting things that I did up there. So that, that was, uh, and that's a historical thing, a significant thing because it hasn't been done since either. So, I was glad to be part of that. And, uh, you know, where I, where, when you're talking about contributions and things, I think where I, where I contributed most is, is just trying to make things a little bit better. Not I don't think any truly major thing, uh, that I can think of that, um, you know, was so monumental, uh, that I, that I, that you can take credit for, but I don't know of anyone that can. Even if you're sponsor of a bill, it usually is not just your thoughts. You, it's the thoughts of everybody else. And I see myself a lot of times up there as, as trying to, uh, keep some legislation from passing because we have a lot of people file legislation out of their expertise that really is, would end up hurting more than helping. Might sound like a good idea but they don't have enough understanding of it, uh, to know. And one thing about being a lawyer is you do represent a lot of people from various backgrounds. So you, you got a little bit of an idea of, uh, what these, what each of these businesses or industries might, might deem important to them. So it's, where I, I, that's where I think, I see myself as being helpful. And the, and the reward of it has been, I've just made some great friends, and made some, uh, met some very interesting people there with it. FLINCHUM: Um, you briefly mentioned KERA earlier. I was wondering if you wanted to say a little more about education, either higher education or KERA. JENSEN: Well, yeah, I, we, um, one thing in the, in our last session 2006, and, and I'm so glad we did this. I'm not saying this because you're a UK or that these, these documents are gonna be kept there, but, um, President Lee Todd has truly, um, impressed me. A very bright man, um, who, University of Kentucky and the state of Kentucky is lucky to have this guy as president of UK. And I, I don't know how he's thought of by--I saw where the students booed him at football games. (laughs) And, uh, I, I sat up with him at a football game, and he, he said, "Well, I guess I'll go down here and get booed." (both laugh) Uh, they don't know how fortunate they are, because he has changed, um, completely how things are gonna be done in the legislature. He developed a business plan that no one had ever done before on how he can achieve a top 20 university for University of Kentucky. Probably a goal that may never be achieved. But he has laid it out how it can be, if the state and the community and the people here have, have the wherewithal to see that it's accomplished. He's got a plan to do it. Uh, it's gonna take money, it's gonna take financing, and whether Kentucky can be a top 20, uh, university, uh, remains to be seen. But it impressed the legislature. And we looked at that, um, uh, I think, as a way, it actually told the other presidents of universities, "Hey you better get on board if you want to get what UK got." And UK's gonna get a bunch. Actually, this legislative session's been very good to the University of Kentucky, better than any of other colleges. Um, but I think it needed to be done. Also, uh, I think probably in the, since the last fourteen years, this session has done more for education than any other one. One thing that we did is significant that the teachers didn't particularly like, but I think, we added two more instructional days to their calendar. Now, two more days may not seem like a lot. Uh, teachers certainly didn't want it, but we're, in order for us to compete worldwide--and that's what you're into now, young people are in worldwide competition. You're not competing, if I live here in Laurel County, I'm just not competing with Laurel County, I'm competing not, not just in Kentucky, not just in the United States, its worldwide now. Every industry, every business you have, and this is with the advent of internet. And it's gonna continue being that way. Um, we have to, we have to accept that and our educational system has gonna have to compete worldwide. And, and particularly in the math and science areas, we're falling way behind. So, uh, I applaud Lee Todd for his initiative. And I think, uh, he's an outstanding leader for the University of Kentucky and I think history will bear that out. That, that you're gonna see a lot of growth under his leadership there. There's a man who could go out and do anything else he wanted to and be well secure. So, and, and you've got appreciate that and one thing, um, I hope that I'm appreciated for, uh, one of these days, when people look back and see my term, that, that it, that I have sacrificed for the community. Um, I don't look at it that way. Uh, I, I think I do make a little sacrifice for it but it's because that's what I want to do. I want to make our community a better place for all my friends and all my, my kids and my grandkids, and I just want to make as, as good a place as we possibly can. But if I was going to be totally greedy, I could obviously sit here in my law practice, and make more money, and work less and, and, um, live more comfortably, and take more trips. But I'm not into that. I'd rather, um, I, I don't mind working, I don't mind putting in long hours as long as I know I'm accomplishing something. And that's what I see in the legislature. Um, Jessica, I'm glad we came down and you had this because I don't know how long I'll stay. You know, it's, it's sort of, I can leave at anytime I want to when I accomplish everything that I want to accomplish, I'll leave. But, um, until I can do that, I'm gonna try to stay on there and, and get as much done as I can. FLINCHUM: Um, over the decades, how have you seen Kentucky change and how would you like to still see Kentucky change in the future? JENSEN: Well, I think it's changed dramatically. Um, and let me, let, let--well, good or bad, it's just changed dramatically. (both laugh) Let me say, when I first came to London in 1970--well, I first came to London in 1967 out of high school to Sue Bennett College. I-75 stopped at Richmond. Uh, so when you got on there, you were on 25. And, and in, in the days, for people that don't understand this, uh, back in the early sixties, when my brother was playing minor-league baseball in Rock Hill, South Carolina, we traveled all the way on 25 down there. And that was a long miserable trip, because every little town you went through you'd have a traffic jam and lights, and it just took you forever to travel. Uh, probably the most significant thing that, that, uh, President Eisenhower ever did was develop the interstate system. And he did that for the purpose of moving, uh, troops, and, and armament around in case we needed it in, in, in, in a war. But it made us, it put us on wheels. And it, and the impact that it's had to Laurel County has been amazing. Uh, when I look at my district because, um, when I first came down here, there was, there was not a fast food restaurant, good or bad, there wasn't any. Uh, you had very limited choices. There wasn't much in the way of business. Wasn't much in the way of jobs. Every kid throughout Kentucky was traveling to, uh, north. Uh, you go up to Hamilton, Ohio, that was where, it was a little Kentucky. If you're up in Norwood, around Cincinnati, it was a little, it was filled with migration out of Kentucky for jobs. They went up to the big plants, Ford and General Motors and those kinds of places, General Electric, to find work because there wasn't work here. That's where I see the significances come back, is that we have brought in some industry here. We've worked hard in the area of bringing in business, so kids don't have to leave here to find a job. Um, some of them still do. But things like that Hal Rogers is trying to do over in Somerset by bringing in this, um, layup that they're talking about. I know it's a little scary to some people but the average pay over there is going to be seventy thousand dollars a year. That's a good job to have, and it's, and it's a hard, you know, there, there's a lot of, um, a lot of fighting going on for those positions. Uh, you take what we did with, uh, when Martha Layne Collins was in the, when I was first in the legislature, bringing in Toyota. Significant impact on Kentucky as it's borne out today. We're, we're a state that deals better with automobiles more than Michigan does, where they had the big three at one time. I mean we, Toyota has done tremendously well in our area, hires a lot of people. So, the difference I've seen is we have, we're still a rural state. I mean, we're not, um, it's not like we're going to be a totally industrial state for a while. But you see Kentucky I think with, with the advent I-75, and the growth that we've made on trying to bring in business and industry, and whether certain things that we can attract out of the north to bring industry in here. Plus, the, the innovations of people here in Kentucky and the jobs that they've created I think has been the most, most impact that I've seen. Um, I think our educational system, uh, still needs to improve here. Uh, I think it's cyclable; I think it's still political. And a lot of our high schools, more so than it should be, um, but some of that's just being from small communities. We offer a lot of things that I think that other states can't. And that's a, uh, friendliness, um, a community spirit that you see here. Um, people are a little more open. And, uh, it's, it's, it's a pretty good place to raise your family, in my judgment. So, uh, I think there's been some dramatic differences. A lot of it's been because of, because of the highway system initially and now internet. You know, you don't have to be in New York City to have a business anymore; you can be in Annville(??), Kentucky, and operate a, uh, operate a major industry, a major business industry over the internet. Um, it's changed things. The whole climate has changed and Kentucky's changing with it. One thing that I'm really pushing for, uh, through agriculture and natural resources committee that I'm doing is broadband. With, that's part of my jurisdiction, to see that broadband is in every area of the state. So, we're pushing real hard on that to make sure we've got speedy access to internet, internet systems. And, um, I think that'll all improve our area. Now we just need to make sure that our kids are very literate, that they get the proper education. Um, we need, we need parents involvement. Um, we need parents being more involved with their kids. I think that a lot of problem that's happened over the last twenty-five or thirty years is that you've got--and I'm not faulting it--but we've got, quite often now, both parents are in the workplace, uh, mother and father. And my wife always worked, raising our kids, but those parents need to be responsible enough that they stay involved with their kids, and they know where their kids are, and what they're doing, and pushing them in the directions to make them as, uh, as successful as they possibly can be. And, uh, hopefully, uh, the family will stick together a little bit and parents will live up to their responsibility. It's not just all teachers or school. There's been a change in that area, though. It used to be close-knit families, people didn't get divorced, women weren't near as independent, and when I say this I don't mean it in a negative way. The jobs weren't there for them, so what were they gonna do? There, there wasn't a workforce for a lot of women. They could become a teacher or something, but there wasn't, for the most part, there wasn't other opportunities for them. Now, it's become more opportunity. But we still need to keep that good family ties that were sitting there. And at least, if you're gonna, if you're gonna have children, take up the responsibility to make sure that they're raised correctly and they get the proper education and they can be all they can be. And I think that, that's, that's nationally, we need to look into that and not just hope that, uh, kids are going to be raised by TV or what they see on internet. So, those are some of the big changes I've seen in my lifetime. FLINCHUM: Okay. Before we finish, I'd like to go back to the issue you said earlier had a lot to do with, um, the strength of the Republican Party, um, spreading from, to different levels. Um, abortion, uh, do you see that changing much? JENSEN: Well-- FLINCHUM: --I've noticed lately in the General Assembly different bills are challenging it from different directions, like with informed consent, embryonic stem cell research? JENSEN: Some real complicated issues are coming up, as research and development comes about. And you know, I, I'm not sure how I, I feel about some of those things. I want to, you know, the, the, um, the embryonic cell research that can be done and what it could, the, the potential of it. When you think about that, it's, it's sort of, it's hard for me to say, "How do we not do that?" Um, I understand the religious thoughts on it that, you know, and, and cloning, and those kind of things. Uh, we need people that I think, I think the whole area needs to be looked at without just jumping to conclusions. Uh, we need to develop some strong ethics in that area on how it can be used, but I think that, uh, the research that could possibly be done on that could be so beneficial to people. Now, politically that's not the Republican stance. But, um, if we can save lives with research that could be done on that or make somebody walk that always been paralyzed. I know that, you know, Reeve, the actor was always talking about the research that could be done on that. If we can do things like that, it's probably worthwhile to pursue and look at. And, uh, I just think we have to develop some strong ethics on it. It's sort of new. Um, it's probably going to be developed whether the United States is involved or not, somewhere in the world. You know, cloning already is, I mean it's, so, I think we need to develop some strong ethics about it and not just ignore it and pretend it's gonna go away. We want to be, we, we, the United States always wants to be at the forefront and leaders, I think, and we need to keep that position. We're the most powerful country in this world. And we need to make sure that we're staying leaders in this world, and not get, not go backwards, uh, because of, of some contexts that we think, well, you know, this violates some form of Christianity. And, I'm not, I don't mean that in a bad sense. But I think we need to take a look at it and say, "Can we, can we still accomplish this without destroying our values?" And that's where the ethics of it comes in. FLINCHUM: For example, using adult stem cells and avoiding embryonic, if it works(??)? JENSEN: Right, right. And I, and I just think, you know, we, we don't want to, uh, I hope we never get so close-minded in this country that we can't look for thing, look at things on how it can really be beneficial. I think there's too much of that in this world today. And when I look at these, uh, countries, uh, Islamic countries that are, and the brutality that they have--not with all of them, obviously--but when you look at the war and they're chopping off people's heads and things like that. And there, and it seems to be on a religious context that they're, uh, doing this on. I hope we don't get to that, where we're, we're fighting holy wars again. That we really, uh, can see through it and do what's best for, best for our citizens and best for the community in the future. And I, um, and I, and I think you can if you just, you, you have to develop some ethics and you have to get people, uh, thinking on what's right and what's wrong. And some of this is developing, there's some gray areas. So I think it just needs to be explored. And people smarter than me think about how it can be utilized without stepping over certain bounds. FLINCHUM: Do you have any closing comments? Maybe some things that we haven't brought up you'd like to go on the record? JENSEN: You know, I, probably tomorrow I'll think of--(Flinchum laughs)- -or tonight. FLINCHUM: You can call me back; we can do it again. JENSEN: But, but it's been enjoyable talking about it. I, I probably should've had a trial run on this, so I could have been a little better organized. Because I did get confused over the dates at one time. And I, and I know I'll think of some other things that I think are significant. But, um, there's been a lot of change, and I, and I think if I didn't talk, uh, so confusing, if I didn't confuse everybody, you can see the change that's been in politics over the last twenty years. And, uh, it's been a significant change. And one thing we didn't touch on, back at one time, actually before I went into the legislature, the Governor ab-, absolutely controlled the legislature. Absolutely determined who was gonna be the speaker of the House, determined everything. Uh, that's not true now anymore. The legislature has more independence. As a matter of fact, a lot of people say now that, uh, the president of the Senate's running the legislature, not the Governor, um, is running state government, that's not true. The Governor has a lot of responsibility. Uh, there's a lot of areas there, but it's, but there is legislative independence anymore, and you'll see it more and more, uh, especially when there's one chamber, uh, controlled by Republicans and another by Democrats. And then whichever Governor, which party he's in, you're gonna see a difference because there's some politics that are played. There's some philosophical differences. But you know, the most part, I, the differences I've seen in Kentucky is, uh, there is some religious differences, but for the most part, people feel the same about most of those issues that you'll see in the legislature. Uh, you'll see the difference more is in rural versus urban on what should be done. And that's the thing about, like, Laurel County. Uh, we're sorta in between. We're not like either one right now. We're getting away from rural, getting more and more urban, but we're not quite there yet, either. So, we've got a lot of growing pains to do in the county. Now Jackson County, for example, is still pretty much a rural county and probably will stay that way even when we get 30 done for a, a good period of time, because, uh, one, it's just off the beaten path from I-75 which I think has made a significant difference. But like I said, there's opportunity there. And if we get 30 over, through there, it's gonna create more opportunity for jobs, so that people can stick around. That's about all I can think of. FLINCHUM: Okay. JENSEN: Okay. FLINCHUM: Thank you very much for a good interview. JENSEN: Well, thank you, Jessica. I appreciate it. I hope you have some good ones. Better than me I hope. (laughs) [End of interview.] Jensen (House 1984-1986, 1990-1996, 85th district; Senate 2005- , 21st district; Republican) recalls his childhood in Cincinnati and college education in Kentucky, early interest in politics, bipartisan relations in the legislature, serving as Chair of the Kentucky Republican Party, his work with representatives in his Senate district to increase economic development and tourism, and the resurgence in popularity of the Republican Party in Kentucky. insert here

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